Welcome to the Compass Designs website, powered by Joomla 1.5! The goal of this new site is to be the place to bookmark if you are looking for quality Joomla templates, tutorials, news and tips.The GPL discussion at the joomla.org forums is still raging on, the thread has now become the most posted to thread in existence and its only a month and a half old!
The debate has expanded from the license into the business models of the the 3rd party developer community.
"Due to the uncertainty of their futures many developers have paused further development of software for Joomla 1.5" www.jcd-a.org
What does this mean for 1.5?
"Can Joomla! extensions be released under non-GPL compatible licenses?"
GPL what, eh?
Most component/extension developers whose are full time Joomla developers use a non-GPL license. You have probably purchased one of their extensions at some point. Usually $20-50 and the non-GPL license asks that you use the component on a single website.
If extensions/components must be GPL, then a different business model is required. This is usually along the lines of giving the component away for free and charging for support, or consultancy-based. Obvously if a component is GPL, it can be re-distributed for free.
The current debate seems to fall on two sides; full time commercial Joomla developers think that GPL-only extensions/components will lead to fewer 3rd party developers and fewer components.
Others, including key members of the Joomla core team think that this won't happen and developers will be able to easily adjust to different business models.
Joomla is asking for the Joomla end user community to contact them with your thoughts on this issue:
All feedback from the forum thread as well as emails sent to thoughts@opensourcematters.org, will be integral to review and consideration for the greater good of the project and the community."
I'd like to ask you to take a moment of your valuable time and email your thoughts, perhaps it really boils down to these two opinions, if you are too busy, you could just copy and paste one of them...
YES!
I think that commercial developers should be able to use non-GPL licenses for their components and choose their own business model.
NO!
All commercial components should be GPL licensed and free, and they must use a GPL-compatible business model.
Thanks for your time, I appreciate you reading this email. I know you are busy, but I thought this was an important issue for all that use Joomla.
ps
If you have a bunch of time on your hands, the background for this question has been discussed (exhaustively) at:
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,163492.0.html
An alternative viewpoint can be found here:
jcd-a.org/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,28/topic,100.0/
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fived
said:
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Barrie Just received your email with regard to this issue, had a look around at the posts you suggested to review. I would very much like to hear your take on this, and perhaps in your usual professional style to "unscramble the scrambled" to "make sense of the madness"! I have always highly respected and trusted your point of view in all communications you make, whether by blog or by email. I would understand totally if you felt airing your opinion was not appropriate, but it would help to understand what is at the core of this issue. 1.Where does it leave commercial developers of extensions/applications or templates. 2.What would this mean to end users, ie those that use Joomla to develop client websites. 3.Is Joomla! perhaps a tad worried if they dont allow commercial development, they will be left with very few extensions to advertise on their .org site as all will have pealed off to a commercial directory for Joomla developers? 4.I see the point of encryption being a concern, but surely, those developers that fail to support will, as with any market environment, fall of the face of the earth and not succeed. I have been considering entering the Joomla commercial development arena, but feel a tad nervous at the thought, is there a future where one could make a living? There is a very good reason why I chose Joomla! as my weapon, and I still stand by it, and sell/shout its virtues from the highest roof tops! It is by far the best Open Source CMS out there without doubt, with the most developers, and a mission that will ensure a healthy and long life. Open source does matter, but it has to be said, the success of Joomla! itself must also be attributed to the number of developers out there that do support it, whether freely or commercially. That is Joomla's! point of differentiation. |
Atomm
said:
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I am rather torn on this issue. Having come from the PostNuke community, I understand the concern about commercial developers. PostNuke suffered greatly from a lack of quality add-ons because it lacked a commercial driven 3rd party system instead relying on the community to fulfill it's own needs and hopefully share with others. Ultimately, I believe it is this lack of talent that is driving users away, just like myself. I decided to switch from PostNuke to Joomla because of two reasons. 1. I felt these template system was the most mature and flexible of any Open Source CMS allowing me to develop websites that do not have that same old recognizable "CMS feel". 2. Because I saw a very active commercial community. I understand how important it is to have a need to fill in the gaps left by the community. I experienced it first hand with PostNuke. To that end, I believe Joomla has done a great job and has a large resource of talent to pull from because of the commercial development. I have been using Joomla for over a year now. In that time, I have purchased a commercial module to create "Tags" on my website. I have paid for a subscription to Rocket Themes and I have paid independent developers to modify open source modules for my own use. I think we have the ability to find these talented people because they can make a living doing this type of work. With PostNuke, this part of the community was almost non-existent, having to rely on a handful of core developers to provide any sort of commercial development. I have also walked away from commercial developers who I feel cross the line between providing a service and holding the community hostage. In these cases, I feel the commercial product being offered should be a part of the core Joomla system and not require payment. The best example I can give is SEF_Advance. This is a core developer, responsible for the Search Engine Friendly URL component of Joomla. The core component is very lacking. IMHO, this is one of those situations where a developer crossed the line and it has caused a lot of issues within the community. SEO/SEF is one of the most important aspects of any website in todays Search Engine driven Internet. It needs to be a key part of Joomla. However, the "free" product really seems to be crippled in an effort to push you towards the commercial product. To me, this is unacceptable. The community has started to address this through open source alternatives. However, rather than creating their own alternative component, it would be better to see them all focus on making the core SEF module better. Yet, this isn't happening because of the exact reason I mentioned above. In this case, a commercial product has fragmented the community so much that we still lack a truely great SEO/SEF component that other CMS's offer in the original core. Another component that should be available in the core is News Commenting, yet there are how many commercial developers offering this service? How many open source developers? Again, why isn't this in the core? As you can see, this is a complicated issue. On one had, the commercial developers extend the core beyond the "hobbyist" coding development. On the other hand, it can squash growth in key areas of the core. No matter what is decided, this is a win/loose situation for the commercial developers and the community at large. I guess what I am trying to say is I believe it is ok to have a thriving commercial community for Joomla as long as those commercial developers are providing a service beyond a basic product, but when those commercial developers are creating products that should be included in the core of Joomla, then it is not good for the Joomla community. Atomm GameNuke.org Disclosure: I have not released any paid components/modules/mambots. I have considered paying to have a commercial component developed, but do not know at this time whether or not I will. However, I am about to release my first commercial theme for Joomla. |
Atomm
said:
|
I am rather torn on this issue. Having come from the PostNuke community, I understand the concern about commercial developers. PostNuke suffered greatly from a lack of quality add-ons because it lacked a commercial driven 3rd party system instead relying on the community to fulfill it's own needs and hopefully share with others. Ultimately, I believe it is this lack of talent that is driving users away, just like myself. I decided to switch from PostNuke to Joomla because of two reasons. 1. I felt these template system was the most mature and flexible of any Open Source CMS allowing me to develop websites that do not have that same old recognizable "CMS feel". 2. Because I saw a very active commercial community. I understand how important it is to have a need to fill in the gaps left by the community. I experienced it first hand with PostNuke. To that end, I believe Joomla has done a great job and has a large resource of talent to pull from because of the commercial development. I have been using Joomla for over a year now. In that time, I have purchased a commercial module to create "Tags" on my website. I have paid for a subscription to Rocket Themes and I have paid independent developers to modify open source modules for my own use. I think we have the ability to find these talented people because they can make a living doing this type of work. With PostNuke, this part of the community was almost non-existent, having to rely on a handful of core developers to provide any sort of commercial development. I have also walked away from commercial developers who I feel cross the line between providing a service and holding the community hostage. In these cases, I feel the commercial product being offered should be a part of the core Joomla system and not require payment. The best example I can give is SEF_Advance. This is a core developer, responsible for the Search Engine Friendly URL component of Joomla. The core component is very lacking. IMHO, this is one of those situations where a developer crossed the line and it has caused a lot of issues within the community. SEO/SEF is one of the most important aspects of any website in todays Search Engine driven Internet. It needs to be a key part of Joomla. However, the "free" product really seems to be crippled in an effort to push you towards the commercial product. To me, this is unacceptable. The community has started to address this through open source alternatives. However, rather than creating their own alternative component, it would be better to see them all focus on making the core SEF module better. Yet, this isn't happening because of the exact reason I mentioned above. In this case, a commercial product has fragmented the community so much that we still lack a truely great SEO/SEF component that other CMS's offer in the original core. Another component that should be available in the core is News Commenting, yet there are how many commercial developers offering this service? How many open source developers? Again, why isn't this in the core? As you can see, this is a complicated issue. On one had, the commercial developers extend the core beyond the "hobbyist" coding development. On the other hand, it can squash growth in key areas of the core. No matter what is decided, this is a win/loose situation for the commercial developers and the community at large. I guess what I am trying to say is I believe it is ok to have a thriving commercial community for Joomla as long as those commercial developers are providing a service beyond a basic product, but when those commercial developers are creating products that should be included in the core of Joomla, then it is not good for the Joomla community. Atomm GameNuke.org Disclosure: I have not released any paid components/modules/mambots. I have considered paying to have a commercial component developed, but do not know at this time whether or not I will. However, I am about to release my first commercial theme for Joomla. |
Atomm
said:
|
I am rather torn on this issue. Having come from the PostNuke community, I understand the concern about commercial developers. PostNuke suffered greatly from a lack of quality add-ons because it lacked a commercial driven 3rd party system instead relying on the community to fulfill it's own needs and hopefully share with others. Ultimately, I believe it is this lack of talent that is driving users away, just like myself. I decided to switch from PostNuke to Joomla because of two reasons. 1. I felt these template system was the most mature and flexible of any Open Source CMS allowing me to develop websites that do not have that same old recognizable "CMS feel". 2. Because I saw a very active commercial community. I understand how important it is to have a need to fill in the gaps left by the community. I experienced it first hand with PostNuke. To that end, I believe Joomla has done a great job and has a large resource of talent to pull from because of the commercial development. I have been using Joomla for over a year now. In that time, I have purchased a commercial module to create "Tags" on my website. I have paid for a subscription to Rocket Themes and I have paid independent developers to modify open source modules for my own use. I think we have the ability to find these talented people because they can make a living doing this type of work. With PostNuke, this part of the community was almost non-existent, having to rely on a handful of core developers to provide any sort of commercial development. I have also walked away from commercial developers who I feel cross the line between providing a service and holding the community hostage. In these cases, I feel the commercial product being offered should be a part of the core Joomla system and not require payment. The best example I can give is SEF_Advance. This is a core developer, responsible for the Search Engine Friendly URL component of Joomla. The core component is very lacking. IMHO, this is one of those situations where a developer crossed the line and it has caused a lot of issues within the community. SEO/SEF is one of the most important aspects of any website in todays Search Engine driven Internet. It needs to be a key part of Joomla. However, the "free" product really seems to be crippled in an effort to push you towards the commercial product. To me, this is unacceptable. The community has started to address this through open source alternatives. However, rather than creating their own alternative component, it would be better to see them all focus on making the core SEF module better. Yet, this isn't happening because of the exact reason I mentioned above. In this case, a commercial product has fragmented the community so much that we still lack a truely great SEO/SEF component that other CMS's offer in the original core. Another component that should be available in the core is News Commenting, yet there are how many commercial developers offering this service? How many open source developers? Again, why isn't this in the core? As you can see, this is a complicated issue. On one had, the commercial developers extend the core beyond the "hobbyist" coding development. On the other hand, it can squash growth in key areas of the core. No matter what is decided, this is a win/loose situation for the commercial developers and the community at large. I guess what I am trying to say is I believe it is ok to have a thriving commercial community for Joomla as long as those commercial developers are providing a service beyond a basic product, but when those commercial developers are creating products that should be included in the core of Joomla, then it is not good for the Joomla community. Atomm GameNuke.org Disclosure: I have not released any paid components/modules/mambots. I have considered paying to have a commercial component developed, but do not know at this time whether or not I will. However, I am about to release my first commercial theme for Joomla. |
Doug Bonneville
said:
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We all know developer needs to get paid. So do musicians. DRM failed for music, noting the recent iTunes DRM-free EMI victory. So DRM free music is the way, right? Why not create a similar eco-system, where it's strongly encouraged to pay for components to be a part of the community in good faith. Why not have a model where you can download for free, but if you want the help forums, you have to pay? Or even better, start your help post with your product ID number or some other download code? There are ways to get around GPL if we are creative, in terms of generating revenue. Why not go helter-skelter and radically trust open source? Anyone who is not willing to pay for help, or anyone who is willing to NOT pay for something they know they should pay for, is not the kind of person I want money from in the first place. Why not treat components like a roadside farmers stand? Why not bring an ethos of character into the whole mix? The collective conscience could insist people pay, but not force them through DRM. This ethos could be sculpted. Think of the shareware model, but one notch higher on the "you should pay" dial. Doug |
TheJoomlaGuy
said:
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Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like a case of fixing something that wasn't broken. There might have been small issues here and there but they seemed to have used "a sledge hammer to push in a staple." Take a look at this graph in Google Trends: http://www.google.com/trends?q=joomla, drupal, wordpress, phpwebsite, phpnuke I don't see where Joomla was failing! Why fix something that ain't broken? Onwards and Upwards, Justin Brooke www.buildajoomlawebsite.com |
moleski
said:
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I think having a mixed model is best for end users. I've paid several subscription fees this year as I learned how to set up a Joomla! site, and I think the money was well spent. "The worker deserves a wage." Marty |
sabersong
said:
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This is a difficult issue. As a developer, my income, and therefore my day-to-day survival depend on being paid for my work. However, releasing my work under the GPL is a personal choice, and one that I make willingly. My choice, and a point that I think needs to be seriously considered, is that the major proprietary software companies, particularly Microsoft, are trying everything in their power to shut down open-source and GPL software. They have the money to throw at what they consider to be a threat to their way of doing business. What we, the open source, GPL and Joomla communities have is strength in numbers. I'm concerned that allowing proprietary extensions in a GPL system may weaken our legal position against the giants. And I'm sure that even the developers of those proprietary extensions don't want that. Consider the cost of VisualBasic development tools, and even a developer's license for being allowed to be a VB developer. Do we want the same thing to happen to, as an example, PHP? If we, as developers, don't stand firm on the GPL issue, it could happen some day. It will, if the big companies have their way. So no, I think that Joomla should remain entirely open-source, and not allow proprietary extensions. It may make a few angry in the short term, but I think it's better for all in the long term. |
J.D.
said:
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I've been using Joomla! for years now, with GPL-only extensions as well as helping several friends start their own Joomla! sites (also with GPL extensions). Although I've never purchased or needed to purchase anything for Joomla!, I don't see the problem with developers creating non-GPL stuff for profit. Mind you, I'd quickly drop Joomla! forever if GPL extensions disappeared... |
Brentrcraig
said:
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I chose to use Joomla because the core product was mature, functional, secure and importantly free (with continued development!). Having said that I would not have chosen it if there had not been a large and varied number of extensions available, after all we do not all want to achieve exactly the same with our sites. Free or paid for I, and I alone, choose what extensions I use. Many of the paid for extensions are very reasonably priced and often include lifetime updates, the amount they cost is infinitesimally small in comparison with what I would pay to have them created or to do without them. Many paid for extensions would not exist if the developers had only GPL to pay their food and rent! Don't get me wrong I feel that Open Source is a fantastic way forwards for us but surely there is room for some commercial activity? After all this is what drives the product forward. Commercial activity increases the input to the OS developers and spurs them on with ideas and direction. If there is only GPL will Joomla stagnate in the way that some other Open Source projects have? The fact that people buy the extensions should show that perhaps the core and GPL products are not yet enough. I thank all the core developers for their selfless hard work in creating something that is worthy of the passion that people feel when expressing their views. For myself I pray that it is possible for all to co-exist and keep Joomla as the top solution (where it belongs). |
Lobos
said:
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Move along, nothing to see here - I (and many others) have already proved that non-gpl licensed code can be deployed with Joomla. First off: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,186705.0.html And the silence was deafening.... Even with the above the solution was rock solid, but wait... : http://jcd-a.org/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,28/topic,349.msg4411/#msg4411 My gosh, how can it be that I look at the license for a few hours and can understand it, while the FSF and OSM have been playing with it for years, yet still haven't got a clue, didn't the General Secretary of the FSF actually author the license? This doesn't compute... RS, RS wherefore art thou RS? This is a non-issue, FSF and OSM tried something and failed dismally. It would be quite funny, but the fact is that they have effed up a good platform and lost all credibility. And lastly: http://jcd-a.org/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,28/topic,550.0/ Joomla has just lost another fulltime coder, in fact Open Source has lost a "comrade" as well - my code will now be proprietary and encoded. My code will interact with GPL code legally as well; I can now enjoy the best of both worlds, have my cake and eat it too hahahahahahaha!!!!! Pandora's box anyone? TTFN  |
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